{"id":79,"date":"2009-08-18T21:52:01","date_gmt":"2009-08-19T04:52:01","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/?p=79"},"modified":"2009-08-18T21:52:01","modified_gmt":"2009-08-19T04:52:01","slug":"some-thoughts-back-and-forth","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/?p=79","title":{"rendered":"Some thoughts back and forth"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>One of the things I&#8217;ve been trying to do is to get some opinions from some more prolific people in the Magic community. It seems like a pretty natural instinct to appeal to the most knowledgeable, and fortunately, I got a hold of Frank Karsten, recent Magic Hall of Fame inductee and Magic writer, including several pieces on Magic. This is going to be a somewhat long post, but here&#8217;s what our email exchange looks like. Feel free to add in on any of the points in either:<\/p>\n<p>Frank to Tom and me<\/p>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Course Syllabus<span style=\"font-weight: normal;\"> <\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>A Class? On That Silly Card Game?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">Game Design: <\/span><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>\u201c\u2026by understanding the intent of design, one can      become a significantly better player.\u201d; you may (instead) argue that learning      something about game design may also be useful for computer science      students when making computer games or something like that.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">Game Theory: <\/span><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>\u201cThe history of game theory comes more from      political situations and the arms race\u201d; I think historically, it actually      originates from an analysis of parlor games and of economic situations of      coalition formation (Von Neumann and Morgenstern\u2019s 1944 Theory of Games      and Economic Behavior).<\/li>\n<li>\u201cwhere the choices one must make choices\u201d; the      second \u2018choices\u2019 is superflous<\/li>\n<li>\u201cwhether to bluff, call, or fold\u201d; so in poker      bluffing is equal to raising? J<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>Week 1 &#8211; Overview of topics and the rules of Magic<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>What you cover in this week should be highly      dependent on who actually takes the course. People that already know how      to play the game don\u2019t need a rules overview and people that don\u2019t know how      to play the game may very well need more than a week to fully understand      the rules of the game. The latter type of people may learn more from <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/TCG\/NewtoMagic.aspx\">http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/TCG\/NewtoMagic.aspx<\/a> and <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/academy\/2\">http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/academy\/2<\/a> and <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/academy\/4\">http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/academy\/4<\/a> than from an article on Magic Jargon.<\/li>\n<li>Some of the information in the rules articles you      listed for this class are now slightly outdated by the M10 rules (no      damage on the stack anymore, etc.). I would add <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtg\/daily\/feature\/42a\">http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtg\/daily\/feature\/42a<\/a> to the list of readings to account for the M10 updates.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>Week 2 &#8211; Deckbuilding Basics and &#8220;Card Advantage&#8221;<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>I would not say that tempo is closely related to      card advantage; in fact, a tempo play (such as playing Unsummon on an      opponent\u2019s creature) is usually not a card advantage play.<\/li>\n<li>I would add <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/academy\/12\">http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/academy\/12<\/a> as a great explanation of the concept of tempo. Furthermore, it may be      useful to know that tempo is also used in chess (<a href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Tempo_(chess))\">http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Tempo_(chess))<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>Week 3 &#8211; Game Theory in Multiplayer games<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>I never play any multiplayer, so I may be biased      here \u2026 but I would move multiplayer (if you want to cover it at all) to      the end of the class, or at least after probability and deckbuilding. I      would rather first teach everything about the game itself and then afterwards      move on to extensions such as multi-player Magic. Putting it in week 3      seems too early, especially when not everyone is a solid Magic duel player      yet.<\/li>\n<li>Note that game theory is not only applicable to      multiplayer games but also to two-player games. I regularly roll dice on      the Pro Tour to decide whether to block or not (since a mixed play leaves      no strategic holes that can be taken advantage of by a good bluffer, as      partially explained here <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/daily\/fk41\">http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/daily\/fk41<\/a>),      for example. A game-theoretical analysis of bluffing is also applicable to      games such as poker.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>Week 5 &#8211; Statistics and Simulation in Deckbuilding<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Wait, what are those articles on e.g. tempo doing      there? I don\u2019t see what that has to do with statistics.<\/li>\n<li>However, statistics can be a very useful tool in      building decks and playtesting. In addition to the relevant and valid      topics you want to tackle in this class, I can add some statistical      questions that I had to answer in my preparation for Pro Tour Honolulu (these      are real examples of how probability theory can be applied to relevant      questions and are straightforward exercises on conditional probability):\n<ul>\n<li>With X lands and Y creatures in your Z-card deck,       what is the probability that a Gift of the Gargantuan will yield either       one or both?<\/li>\n<li>When deck X has an A% chance of winning <em>before sideboarding<\/em> against deck Y       and a B% chance of winning <em>after       sideboarding<\/em> against deck Y, what is the probability of deck X       winning <em>a match<\/em> against deck Y?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>You could also discuss mulligan decisions here      and use probability to show that keeping one-land opening hands is almost      always a bad move. For example, take a one-land opening hand and calculate      the probability of finding at least one land in the top 2 cards of your      deck. From that extrapolate to the odds of winning the game if you keep      the 7-carder and compare that to an (estimated) odds of winning the game      if you go down to 6 cards. If the latter is higher (it almost certainly      is), then you should mulligan.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>Week 6 &#8211; Epistemic Logic and Limited<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Some useful articles:\n<ul>\n<li>Introduction to drafting: <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/academy\/13\">http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/academy\/13<\/a><\/li>\n<li>A booster draft signaling primer: <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/sideboard\/article.asp?x=sb20010223c\">http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/sideboard\/article.asp?x=sb20010223c<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>Week 7 &#8211; Metagame and Applications of Graph Theory<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>I\u2019m curious to see what the graph theory will add      here, since I\u2019ve never used it and perhaps it is valuable.<\/li>\n<li>Two potentially useful articles (written by me,      but that\u2019s what I remember best) detail how to calculate expected win      percentage of decks depending on the metagame <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/daily\/fk23\">http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/daily\/fk23<\/a> and metagaming <a href=\"http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/daily\/fk41\">http:\/\/www.wizards.com\/Magic\/Magazine\/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom\/daily\/fk41<\/a>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>Week 9 &#8211; Presentations<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>You may want to plan this part out a bit further.      Build a deck for what format? Do you assume that everyone has all the needed      cards at his\/her disposal?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>General Resources<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>\u201cthe makes of Magic\u201d -&gt; \u201cthe makers of Magic\u201d<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<li>You can also add <a href=\"http:\/\/www.channelfireball.com\/\">www.channelfireball.com<\/a><\/li>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div>And my less formatted response:<\/div>\n<div>\n<blockquote>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">Week 1<\/p>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">Our class is intended to be just as appropriate for beginners as it is for experienced players, so no assumptions about what the students know. Our first class is an intro to the rules, and we&#8217;ll get them into games shortly after that. We&#8217;re going to recommend that they heavily visit our 24\/7 &#8220;office hours&#8221; to get experience playing over that first week so that we could begin talking about more real things starting week 2. Since Magic is more the context than the point of the class, we don&#8217;t want to waste any time on that.<\/p>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial; min-height: 16.0px;\">\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">The motivation for the articles that we picked is that it would be more helpful for them to have references instead of explanations of the rules (especially since readings for the first week will be done after, not before that class). Of the 3 or 4 friends to whom Tom and I taught the game in our dorm room, they all picked up the game really quickly and, as soon as they were told, understood why you play instants during your opponent&#8217;s end of turn phase and what to look for in using counters. I&#8217;m trusting that students are pretty smart and see the biggest obstacle just being how much they know about existing magic cards and popular decks. It&#8217;s usually pretty easy to see how a deck works and why it might be good. It&#8217;s a lot more difficult to try to understand why that deck might be good in a given format, especially if you don&#8217;t know what cards are there.<\/p>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial; min-height: 16.0px;\">\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">Do you think those are fair assumptions about how to put this together, based on your experience with new players? This is actually a fairly big concern that we have, because if we don&#8217;t get the class off on the right foot or have the proper basis for the situations to come, we&#8217;re hosed.<\/p>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial; min-height: 16.0px;\">\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">Week 3<\/p>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">I&#8217;m thinking the multiplayer is a dorm room bias because I actually got a lot of feedback telling us, like you mentioned, to move multiplayer to the end of the course. As I mentioned, Tom and I are mostly casual players, and when we play, it&#8217;s pretty much just whoever happens to be sitting in the room. Given that, I still usually prefer playing 1 on 1 games, but I think the move to multiplayer early gives us a wider space to discuss game theory without introducing additional rules complexity. Since a lot of games are cooperative (you get a lot more games when not everything is 0 sum), I think that makes more sense when you have potential allies and not just one guy across the table trying to beat your face. The goal of the class is to demonstrate interesting ideas with the side effect of developing better play skills instead of trying to develop a rock-solid basis for future pro magic players (though I&#8217;d be proud if that happened), so I figured I would bend things a bit to make way for what I think is interesting. Game theory, I think, just makes a lot more sense and is more approachable earlier in the class instead of hitting with graph theory. Given all that justification, though, I&#8217;d be happy to listen to alternative schemes and reasoning for structuring that.<\/p>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial; min-height: 16.0px;\">\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">Week 5<\/p>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">Yeah, I think mulligan does make a lot of sense with statistics. Combinatorics is obviously huge when determining the composition of an opening hand, and it just keeps on going from then on. That sounds like a great application; thanks.<\/p>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial; min-height: 16.0px;\">\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">And if you happen to have real examples of some analysis that you&#8217;ve done, I&#8217;d be very interested to see it. Certainly don&#8217;t go through the effort to write it up if it&#8217;s not in an available format, but I think it&#8217;d be great to work in analysis from &#8220;real REAL&#8221; magic so that there&#8217;s something to present to the hardcore magic community and not just toy examples to satisfy the class.<\/p>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial; min-height: 16.0px;\">\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">Week 9<\/p>\n<p style=\"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 14.0px Arial;\">Pretty much our idea for how presentations and cards would go is that Tom and I have a decent supply of extra cards, mostly bulk commons (whoever needed 50+ copies of CoP:Red?), and we would build some initial decks for them and let the rest of those cards be their entire card pool. Though it might be an interesting experiment in game theory, we&#8217;re going to bar outside cards from getting into the class environment. That way, we don&#8217;t have to worry about the class becoming unbalanced or unfun just because someone was willing to invest more into the class. The only trickiness there is that some cards will be scarce; I&#8217;m sure the 1 or 2 sudden deaths we have will be greatly desired, but we&#8217;re not too worried about that. The card pool isn&#8217;t going to be super-cohesive or uniform, but when our budget is 0 and we&#8217;re running the class out of our pockets, that&#8217;s about what we&#8217;re willing to offer.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div>And Frank&#8217;s response:<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div>Week 1 =&gt; My experience with newer players is very limited. The last time I taught a new player was during\u00a0last century. Furthermore, a completely new player would benefit more from being taught by someone who learned Magic a couple months ago than by someone who plays on a much higher level. That makes it much easier for the teacher to relate to the new player. That&#8217;s something to keep in mind.<\/p>\n<p>Week 3 =&gt; I understand where you are coming from. If you keep it in week 3, I would personally name the class &#8216;game theory in single- and multiplayer games&#8217; (rather than just multiplayer games) and focus on applications of game theoretical concepts to both types of games. That is, I would spend an entire class on multiplayer games that early.<\/p>\n<p>Week 5 =&gt; Can&#8217;t think of any relevant analysis I&#8217;ve done in the past from the top of my head, but I&#8217;ll take a look at archives sometime soon. I&#8217;ll let you know if I find anything.<\/p>\n<p>Week 9 =&gt; If three players all want the same Sudden Death, this may get annoying. Another idea is to split the class in 5 groups after a few weeks and let every group build a mono-color deck. Then unfortunately not everyone has their own deck, but there will be no unfair allocations of cards and the deck building process becomes a cooperative group process rather than something everyone does individually. Don&#8217;t know if this is more desirable, but I&#8217;m just tossing out ideas.<\/p>\n<p>More ideas then &#8230; as for week 8, you may also consider doing something with search algorithms in deck building. An AI that builds decks has to take into account that adding e.g. just 4 Channel or just 4 Fireball to a given deck won&#8217;t improve it, but adding 4 Channel and 4 Fireball to a deck\u00a0makes it\u00a0better (use any 2-card combo for this example). Theory on search algorithms that use this logic may be interesting, perhaps?<\/p><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div>Definitely some much better ideas in there than what we&#8217;ve come up with. Let me know if anything in there stands out to you as important.<\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>One of the things I&#8217;ve been trying to do is to get some opinions from some more prolific people in the Magic community. It seems like a pretty natural instinct to appeal to the most knowledgeable, and fortunately, I got a hold of Frank Karsten, recent Magic Hall of Fame inductee and Magic writer, including [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[10],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/79"}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=79"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/79\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":80,"href":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/79\/revisions\/80"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=79"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=79"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/magic.kevinleung.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=79"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}